Welcome in, everyone.
We're back for another episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast.
I'm with you as always, Brian Milner.
And today I have Miss Tali Schlaufer with us.
Welcome, Tally.
Thanks, Bryan.
Very excited to have Tali with us.
She is a job interview coach.
So you can kind of see the direction we're going in here.
One of her tagline is that she, she helps, you know, professionals get offers they're really excited about.
And, um, She's got some really interesting insights here because I know in today's world, in Today's environments, there is lot of shifting going on there.
There's a lot.
Transitioning.
between different places of work.
And that interview is always kind of the forgotten portion of it, right?
You get past all the other stuff, you get to the point where you're in the interview.
So Tali, from your perspective, I know you see and help a lot of people with that portion.
What are some of some the biggest mistakes that people make that you routinely as you help people prepare for their interviews?
Yeah, absolutely.
I think one of the things that you just mentioned where, you know, people really struggling with the interview piece, so you do all this work in your job
search to update your resume, update, your LinkedIn network, all the stuff.
And then you get to the interviewing.
It's like, okay, we're close.
The interview is actually a completely different stage.
than anything else.
And one mistake that I often see people making is just the mindset around interviews.
A lot of people think, if I'm great at my job, I'll just interview really well.
Like, i'm a top performer.
I am good to go.
But interviewing is actually a skill that's completely separate from anything we do in the workplace.
It requires you to be able to articulate what you've done in workplace and the results and impact that you brought.
in a way that most of us don't have to do in our day-to-day jobs, and you have do it better than everybody else.
So just because you are a top performer doesn't necessarily mean that that translates into your ability to talk about yourself and talk your career,
especially in way resonates with the specific job culture and the job that you're applying for.
I think that's kind of the top Top mistake that I would just from a mindset level is seeing interviews as something that you're naturally good at rather
than as a skill that can really develop and build in order to set yourself up for success.
That's a great point because, as you said, just because I'm a top performer in something that I do, I have a huge skill set or knowledge area that i'm
really good at, doesn't mean that, iI'm necessarily good in an interview process because it is a whole set of other communication skills that you have
to have in that kind of environment.
I know when I've talked to people about it, sometimes they feel sort of this I don't know, dichotomy a little bit back and forth about,
I know I'm supposed to plug myself here.
I now I am supposed kind of brag a bit, but I also don' want to sound cocky.
Don't want sound, you know just brash or anything.
How do you help people or what do advise people about in that area?
Yeah, and I think this is really common for people who are top performers and people are very team oriented and collaboration oriented.
It's really difficult for those folks to go, hey, I did all this stuff by myself, and to kind of put themselves in that spotlight.
So it's a very common challenge.
It is also very commonly for folks who are really good at their job and have been doing this for a long time to actually be able to articulate what that
secret sauce is, like why they're actually good in their jobs.
which is part of the challenge.
Remind me the question that you just asked.
No, I'm just in talking about kind of like how people prepare for these kinds of things.
The way they communicate this stuff, you know, sometimes it's kind more this worry about, am I being a little too overbearing or brash in how I am bragging
about myself?
Will I come off feeling cocky or overconfident?
How do they walk that fine line?
Yeah, I think this is a really big mindset piece where a lot of people who are those top performers and are very collaborative in nature are afraid to
talk about themselves and be in the spotlight and kind of take credit where, especially in something like in The Agile World or project management,
product management.
It's a very, collaborative space.
So people are.
Afraid to like, people.
Are afraid.
To say, here's what I did.
And.
Part of the mindset shift that I really encourage clients and job seekers to have is rather than to see it as, hey, the interview is all about you and
the spotlight's on you.
And, you know, your used car salesman trying to promo yourself and it feels really icky.
So we don't want to do it.
We end up not doing it at all.
Think of it rather as you're trying.
To help this employer solve a problem.
you're on the same side of the table with them.
You're essentially a consultant for them, their problem is, hey, I've got this role.
I have this challenge in my company.
And I need to find who's gonna be able to help me do that.
So you are essentially being an advisor for that and sharing here's how my previous experiences and what I done in the past might be to be help you with
your challenges.
a partnership type of conversation where you're exploring, well, what are you struggling with and how, let me share ways that I think I might be able to help.
I Think having that mindset is a lot more helpful for people who are more collaborative in nature.
There's also a part of it that is getting really clear on how your work has actually delivered results.
Being really confident.
A lot of folks who were more cooperative in Nature, which is lot a people that i work with, tend to really get stuck in the we.
So they say, we deliver this, We manage this.
We strategized in this way.
And then the interviewer ends up losing the thread of, well, what did this person sitting across from me do?
What did they lead?
what do they manage versus what they do collaboratively?
So getting really clear and even getting some language around how to talk about your contributions with respect to the team.
So saying, I led the strategy session, or I facilitated the collaboration of this, Or I made the suggestion to people who then made a decision.
Those kind of nuanced pieces of communication can help us feel more comfortable with actually owning our story in a way that doesn't feel gross.
Yeah.
I think you make a great point there about the partnership aspect of it because having been on both sides of the table there,
I know when I was hiring people as a software manager of some kind, the thought is always when the person comes in, you want to hire them.
When they've reached that stage, when you finally bring them in, you're excited about the people that you decided to bring in and you are pulling for them.
You want them to actually be successful.
So it's an, I think it is important to keep that in mind too, that they want you to be.
Successful.
They want that role filled or they wouldn't have, put out the job wreck and all the other things.
If you, so let, let's just kind of talk through on a practical level.
You've done the work, you've put out the resume, You got the call, maybe you even gone through.
Well, I guess we should talk about that as well.
Kind of the difference between a virtual or phone interview and an in-person interview.
Is there a difference in level of prep or in how you tricks to being more successful if it's virtual versus in person?
I think the preparation itself should be the same.
At the end of the day, your preparation should be about what are the challenges that this company that, this organization is facing and how does this role
help solve those challenges?
What are those skills?
what Are the top five skills that I need to demonstrate hard and soft skills and in order to show them that.
I can be the talk performer for this roll and what our stories that can share for each one of those.
To prove that yeah, I have what it takes.
So I, can actually walk the walk as well.
And I've gotten results in this area before.
The prep work itself in the days leading up to the interview should be more or less the same.
I would say the difference between a virtual interview versus an in-person interview is just people's comfort level.
A lot of people are really comfortable in in person interviews because it feels like you're actually talking to a human.
You have a full-size person sitting across from the table from you.
So it's a lot more comfortable.
And I think even though through COVID, we had a lot more virtual conversations.
There's still a very performative feeling element to it when it comes to virtual interviews.
So one of my top tips for virtual interview is please turn off your self view.
If you're in the Zoom call and if you are in a meeting, because it makes people so nervous and self-conscious.
When you get on that Zoom Call, on the Teams call, whatever platform you using, make sure you in frame.
Right, make sure that your lighting is good, all that stuff, and then turn off that camera so that you're not just watching yourself and being super self-conscious
the entire time.
Because think about it, in what other context in your life, when you are having a conversation with someone, do you have a mirror that looking at?
Right.
Right, I mean, if you're in their interview room, unless there's a mirror all the way around, you are not really getting that view.
And even if did, probably wouldn't watch yourself in the mirror the entire time.
So yeah, that's great tip.
I think you absolutely right.
Kid and Alita being very, very self-conscious then.
I want to go back a little bit to the prep because I think your tip there is a really important thing to try to understand the challenges,
understand what it is they're looking for.
And it just struck me as you were saying that it seems very similar to in my kind of line of work.
I do a lot of consulting work with people.
And when I have a client that's a prospective client, it's almost the same thing where you have to research a little bit about the company ahead of time.
You know, if you're doing kind a sales call prior to the engagement, It's very similar.
And I just thought about that.
There is an overlap there between that and job interviews because you are selling yourself.
You know, you're selling your services to that company.
And a lot of people, here's another mistake that a of well-meaning people make is as part of their prep work, going online and finding a bunch of questions
that they can then prepare for.
So it's a very, I kind of call it whack-a-mole where, hey, let me try to figure out all the possible questions I might get asked.
write out answers for those.
That might get some people results.
And if it's getting you results, that's great.
But what I really encourage people to do is really reverse engineer your talking points from the job description, from what you know.
Even once you've had the conversation with the recruiter, you a little bit more about the position than maybe is even listed on the drop description.
So compile everything that you about this opportunity and figure out, OK, what are the most important things for me to be able to articulate rather than
just guessing at random questions that the internet says you might get asked.
Yeah, that's a great point.
I know we all want to get past that and get to the job, but I think there's also an element there of, let's say you do memorize these questions and they
just happen to ask you the exact questions you had prepared for.
If you don't really have that knowledge, then you're not going to really do well in that job even if you get it.
So it's almost a blessing to not get that a job if if didn't know that information because they're gonna be counting on you to do that and you're not gonna
do your job well then.
Yeah.
And the memorizing piece that you just mentioned is really, really easy for people to fall into the trap of trying to memorize their answers,
especially with chat GPT and AI.
Everybody's thinking, well, let's use these AI tools to help us come up with interview answers.
Job seekers will plug in, here's a bunch of questions that I might get.
Look at my resume, tell me how can I answer these questions?
And it feels safe.
It feels like this very smart robot or technology is going to say this in a better way than I can.
But it really sets people up for failure most of the time, because number one, most people aren't good at memorizing things,
right?
Most of us don't have to do that as our job.
So most us are really bad at memorize.
Number two, it makes you sound like a robot.
it doesn't sound human.
You lose the attention of that person who you're talking with.
And number three, it doesn't, when you just memorize answers, rather than thinking about it as what are talking points that I can riff off,
riff on, and kind of reuse and recycle and tell stories with.
When you memorize, It puts you in the position of, oh, yeah, that's great if they ask you that exact question.
And some questions you will get asked, like, tell me about yourself.
You're going to get 99% of the time.
But for the most part, if you memorized a set of 10 questions, And one of those questions gets a slight variation or they ask a question that's not on there.
you end up panicking, you don't know how to think on your feet because you're reliant on you tool.
You've used AI or you've use your script as a strategy rather than a tool." Yeah, that's a great point.
I'm kind of wanting to get your take on this because this is a big thing that I know often comes up in these kinds of interviews is those questions that
we all hate to, no one ever knows how answer these things.
So I am just curious how you advise people You know, the awful question like, you know give me some of your weaknesses or give some things that you're
not good at.
How do you advise people to handle those kind of questions when they get asked in interviews?
Yeah, so there are definitely some questions that we tend to hear more often than others, especially when it comes to those recruiter interviews that tell
me about yourself.
What are your strengths?
What?
Are your weaknesses?
Tell me.
About a time you had to deal with a conflict.
Tell about a 10 you have to do with the mistake.
Those are pretty common.
I would say in that.
initial recruiter conversation.
It's always an interview in my book.
The weakness question I know is one of the that and the tell me about yourself is what really stresses people out.
My general advice for the weakness is actually something that I heard Adam Grant, who's an organizational psychology at Wharton share,
which is pick something.
That is real, but not disqualifying.
So if you're an Agilist, your weakness should probably not be scrum.
or not be, you know, understanding business requirements.
But it could be something like public speaking, or it can be like something delegating where, it's something real and it is something authentic.
Authenticity is really, really important, especially nowadays in interviews.
but it doesn't stop you from being able to perform well.
So what I typically advise is, pick a weakness, like Adam Grant says, that's real but not disqualifying.
This is important.
We're in where a lot of people miss out.
Cher, what are you doing to actually address it?
Because what we want to do, the point of that question isn't tell us what's wrong with you so we can judge you and disqualify you from the job.
It's the subcontext of it is, do you have self-awareness?
Are you somebody who is aware enough and humble enough to know your shortcomings and Are you someone who's proactive about fixing them and about becoming
a better person?
So the second part of that answer should be, well, what have you done to try to improve?
What are specific steps that you've taken in order to Yeah, that's a great response.
I know I've heard the traditional, you try to say, one of your strengths as if, I guess my weakness is I work too hard.
Like that kind of thing, which I agree.
It's not sincere.
If I'm hearing that and I am interviewing someone that could disqualify him in my book, because I could think, oh, this person is not going to be honest
with me.
Or the, I'm a perfectionist.
Oh, right.
I remember perfectionists, the most common answer to that question.
Yeah, exactly.
Well, you hit on the other big one too.
Tell me about yourself.
How do you advise people to handle that?
You have a script in mind.
Do you, do kind of detail out a couple of things?
What are, what's important to hit when someone asks you to just tell you tell me.
About you.
yeah, i'm.
A big fan of formulas over scripts.
So I'll share my formula, but let me share a couple things that derail people.
Let's kind of establish what's not helpful.
And then we can kind talk about this formula.
Which by the way, lots of different career coaches have different formulas.
There's no necessarily one that works.
It's just pick something and learn to do it really well.
A lot of people will go in and start, well, I graduated from the University of Washington in 1995, and they give kind their entire history.
We lose the interviewer right away when we do that.
So rather than giving them a chronological history of everything that's happened in your career and asking them when you do,
that we are essentially asking.
Hey, here's all this information and data.
You make sense of it.
you figure out how it's relevant to you.
I think it is actually really kind to use a formula.
to help them understand, here's everything you need to know about me as it pertains to this role.
So taking everything, taking your history and your career through the filter of what is important to demonstrate for this rule.
The formula that I teach is sharing a super quick background.
Hey, I'm Tali.
I've been a project manager for the last 10 years.
That's not true.
Let me reset that.
Starting with a very brief sentence about yourself, your relevant role, how long you've had experience.
Hey, I'm John.
I've been project manager for the last 10 years, sharing the three key skills that you need to have in order to succeed at this job.
And for each of those three skills, can you list an accomplishment or a metric or success story?
And we're not telling a whole story.
We're just giving them here's the highlight reel, here is the headline, and then you'll click into all of those stories later.
So quick little background about yourself, three main skills that you've developed that are relevant for this role and super high level accomplishment
to demonstrate those skills.
So that's a little bit, that kind of is the first half, and that talks more about your previous experiences.
And then in the second half of this answer, we want to pivot it to the future.
So the 1st half is really about the past, it's about yourself.
In the 2nd half we wanna pivot to future, so what are you looking for in your next role?
And hopefully that thing is also in that whatever you're looking in next roll should dovetail really nicely into what they're offering as a company and
as an organization.
What are you looking for specifically in your next role and why are so excited about interviewing with this company?
And we want to share something really specific that we wanna share, something specific.
That feels personal where a lot of people go wrong is they'll share.
I really want growth in my next roll.
And I'm excited about this team because I know you guys has really value innovation.
That doesn't really tell us anything.
So we want one level of detail lower.
What I really want in my next role is more leadership opportunities, so opportunities to mentor.
And i'm really excited.
About this particular opportunities because i looked on your website.
I looked at your blog posts.
You know, CEO's posts that they share on LinkedIn.
And I can tell that this is a really important part of your culture is being able to mentor people up into higher positions,
right?
Getting that specific and there's not a right answer.
I remember when I was interviewing for out of college, I, was interviewed for T-Mobile for an internship and my answer was.
I've talked to a lot of people, I have networked with a of a people at T-Mobile and one thing that really strikes me is the fact that a lo of the people
will leave for local companies like Microsoft, Amazon, and then they come back.
There's a a And the culture, like I shared things that are specific to the.
And there's not a right answer here.
It just needs to be specific and it needs.
When you talk about it, you kind of start getting butterflies because that's contagious.
That's awesome.
Well, I want to ask about kind.
Of the other half of the interview or the portion of the interview as well.
I often hear people say, you should walk into the, understanding that it's a two-way interview.
They're interviewing you, but you're, interviewing them as, because you want to know, is this the right place for me?
So I can make the decision about where I'm going to end up.
What kind of things do you advise people to ask about or to focus on?
What are some things that might expose some hidden things about the organization, warning signs or anything like that, that you might pop up in an interview
to asked about?
That's a really good question.
I think one thing, it really depends on the opportunity and what you're looking for.
So I don't think that there's one magic question that if you ask it, oh, the person is going to be super impressed.
Let me back up.
What I really like about what you just said is the framing of the questions that you ask at the end as a two-way conversation and as way for you to understand
more about the company so you can see if it's a good fit.
I think a lot of people, especially in tough job markets, tend to kind of close their eyes and hope they get something and they almost blind themselves
to the fact that they need to also do the work to make sure that it is a fit or I see a of a people who go, well, What can I ask that's impressive?
What questions can i ask?
That's going to really wow them at the end, rather than seeing it as an opportunity to understand what they offer more.
So I would sit down and prioritize what is really important for you in a culture.
If getting feedback, if growth is important to you.
Making sure to ask about, well, can you tell me about recently on your team, somebody who was promoted or how you helped somebody grow in the company?
The best way that we can learn about something is through examples, the best proof that some somebody values something, is to the examples that they share.
So we want to.
Kind of like you hear behavioral questions, you get asked, like, tell about a time when you can also use that figure out what's important for you and then
create ask questions specifically about those things.
One question that I think can be really helpful to get you to, get a sense of what kind of person succeeds on this team and what the team really values
is kind, of the inverse of that.
So can you tell me about, can, you, tell, me, about what type of, person, doesn't do well here?
Because then if they say, the type, or person who doesn,t do, well, here, Isn't committed to working 60 hours a week.
They expect to take their vacations and not be able to unplug that kind of being able.
Who isn't successful gives you some context around some of their values as well.
Yeah, that's an excellent question because I agree, presumably this is someone you're gonna be working with if you get the job.
That immediate kind of relationship I think is going to really be impactful on the expectations, you know, and that sort of thing.
So yeah, if I'm interviewing and I ask that kind question and they do come back and say, yeah the person who doesn't work 60 hours or anything,
Yeah, that's a good sign that maybe this is, I don't know, unless I enjoy working 60 hours a week, or that, maybe, this isn't the right cultural fit for me.
So that is an excellent question because I think that would expose some of that behind the scenes stuff, cultural things.
And you really want to ask about questions about your dynamic with the manager.
So what kind of people succeed under them?
Because that's the number one people.
I believe I'd have to fact check this, but you always hear that the Number One people reason people don't like their jobs or people leave their job is
because of their boss.
You're essentially going on a date with them and you want to understand what is it like to hang out with you for 40 hours a week?
So asking specific questions to really understand, what's their working style?
What are their expectations?
What does feedback look like?
Is it a once a year thing?
Every time we touch base during our one-on-ones, you get feedback.
That is really important.
The other thing that's important to think about is, do you understand the role itself?
What questions do have, what gaps in your understanding do, have about the roll?
Really clarifying to make sure that you know what you're signing up for.
Yeah, that that's a great response as well.
I know I've, I remember from back in the day getting told that, you know, it's, a good kind of question to ask.
What would success look like?
You know?
If you really got someone to nail this and you were really happy with the hire and it was perfect, what would, would be the biggest thing that would contribute
to that?
And I always liked that approach as, well, because it kind gives you the, the the expectation from the start to know, here's what's most important in that
manager's mind of what they're looking for.
Yeah, just in my memory of interviewing people, I would say I don't think I've ever not hired someone because of a question that they asked at the end,
but I have felt sometimes like when they don' ask questions that their a little unprepared.
I think part of the not asking questions, one is being not prepared, not thinking thoroughly about the job.
But it's also a little bit of a sense of desperation.
Like, oh, I've been applying for four months.
I'm willing to take anything.
So I don't have questions because let me just take any first job that comes available.
There's kind of that mindset.
And I thinks it manifests as I do not have any questions.
People can kind feel that when you're not critical when you're not trying to figure out, hey, am I really going to be able to succeed here?
People kind of pick up on that and it either looks like desperation or it looks disengagement and disinterest.
We want people not, we don't want to hire the first person off the street who can do the job.
we want hire somebody who's excited to there and who we know isn't going leave six months later when they find something better.
Yeah, that's really good.
Well, this has been really enlightening.
I think there's a lot of gems in here that I thing people can apply.
We all find ourselves in that position from time to time of, you know, having to interview for things.
Even as I said, even as a consultant, it's an interview when you talk to a potential new client.
So I that these are all really great tips for that.
We're gonna make sure that there's contact information for Tali and the show notes of this so you can get a hold of her.
Anything you want to shout out about, any places you wanna point people to to get in contact with you.
So for the last few years, I've been posting usually about two short form videos a day to LinkedIn, all the social medias.
Over the past couple of years I have posted over 700 short-form videos on social media.
I actually had over 100 million views on LinkedIn which is really crazy.
Somebody recognized me at the dog park the other day which was wild.
I created an interview tip vault that took the best, the most helpful videos.
The ones that have gone viral, received the.
Best feedback gotten people the biggest results in their interviews.
And I compiled them all in one interview, tip bolt.
So that's my little thing that I like to share with people.
You'll see everything in there from how to tell me about yourself to answering.
Why do people ramble and what other mistakes are people making?
And also special tips for senior leaders and executives.
So that's my little freebie that I like to share out for folks who are interested in the stuff that i'm talking about.
Awesome, awesome.
Well, we will definitely make that available to people in the show notes and links to your socials as well so people can follow you and stay on top of
your tips as they come out.
So thank you so much for coming on Tali and I appreciate you spending some time with us and sharing your knowledge with this.
Thanks so Brian, it was a pleasure.