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#101: Fostering Sustainable Change with Leor Herzfeld

June 05, 2024     31 minutes

Join Brian as he discusses the crucial elements of sustainable agility with Leor Herzfeld, Agile Coach and CEO of Integral Agile. Dive into the human side of sustainability and discover the 14 dimensions essential for creating a culture that truly engages.


In this episode of the Agile Mentors Podcast, Brian Milner sits down with Leor Herzfeld to unpack the concept of sustainable agility from a deeply human perspective.

They explore why external changes often fail and how a focus on individual health—encompassing safety, autonomy, mastery, purpose, and accountability—can lead to genuine, lasting transformation within organizations.

Leor shares practical tools for leaders looking to foster an environment that supports continuous agile practices and nurtures employee engagement. Listen in as they discuss how to achieve a resilient and thriving workplace.

Listen Now to Discover:

[1:01] - Join Brian as he explores the vital role of sustainability in Agile methodologies with expert guest, CEO of Integral Agile and author of the upcoming book Reimagine Transformation, Leor Herzfeld.
[2:09] - Leor delves into the meaning of human sustainability, explaining its significance and impact.
[4:33] - Brian discusses the inherent resistance to change, noting that even positive transformations require adjustments.
[5:22] - Leor poses the shift from thinking about only the holistic, healthy Agile culture and team to focusing on a healthy individual. 
[7:14] - Brian and Leor explore what sustainability and sustainable pace practices entail in real-world scenarios.
[10:03] - Leor examines the reasons behind employees' lack of engagement in their organizations and work environments.
[11:49] - Leor discusses 14 key aspects of individual health that are essential for creating a sustainable and healthy environment at both individual and organizational levels.
[14:03] - Leor shares a tool to assess the Agile health of your team or organization.
[14:53] - Enhance your team's performance with Mountain Goat Software’s specialized private training, including exclusive classes for leaders that accommodate their busy schedules. Dive into training that promises to elevate your team and organizational health, ensuring success across the board. You can email the Mountain Goat Software team for detailed information.
[16:43] - Leor shares how he measures the sustainability and health of the teams and organizations he works with.
[18:46] - Brian highlights a frequent issue encountered in classes: Agile teams feeling unsupported by their organization's culture.
[22:27] - Leor delves into the evolving landscape of the Agile world, exploring how shifts can foster greater organizational support and, thereby, sustainable environments. 
[28:58] - Brian shares a big thank you to Leor for joining him on the show.
[29:52] - If you’d like to continue this discussion, join the Agile Mentors Community. You get a year of free membership into that site by taking any class with Mountain Goat Software, where we get right into the good stuff and have some deep discussions. We'd love to see you in one of Mountain Goat Software's classes. You can find the schedule here.
[30:17] - We invite you to subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast. If you have feedback or a great idea for an episode of the show, send us an email. We can’t wait to hear!

References and resources mentioned in the show:

Leor Herzfeld
Integral Agile
Integral Agile Health and Happiness Assessment
Reimagine Transformation by Leor Herzfeld, David Hersey, Ben Williams, and Julio Pizarro
Organizational Transformation: A Case Study For Creating A Cross-Functional Team Of Teams (Art) Aligned To A Value Stream
Drive: The Surprising Truth About What Motivates Us by Daniel Pink
Agile For Leaders
Mountain Goat Software’s Private Training
Subscribe to the Agile Mentors Podcast
Mountain Goat Software Certified Scrum and Agile Training Schedule
Join the Agile Mentors Community

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This episode’s presenters are:

Brian Milner is SVP of coaching and training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work.

Leor Herzfeld is an Agile Coach and creator of the Integral Agile Approach, combines his artistic and scientific expertise to drive transformative changes in the financial and educational sectors. He is dedicated to developing advanced collaboration tools that enhance organizational design and enable seamless workflows, drawing from his unique blend of artistic vision and scientific insight.

Auto-generated Transcript:

Brian (00:00)
Welcome in Agile Mentors. We're here for another episode of the Agile Mentors podcast. I am with you as always, Brian Milner. And with me today, I have Mr. Leor Herzfeld with us. Welcome in, Leor.

Leor Herzfeld (00:13)
Thank you, Brian. Happy to be here.

Brian (00:16)
Excited to have Leor with us. Leor is somebody who we kind of cross -passed at the Agile 2023 conference this last year. And he had a talk there that was really, really interesting. And we wanted to have him on for a while now to kind of share some of the insights from that talk with us here on the podcast. So his topic was called sustainable agility. But we were talking about this before he had. So Leor, I'll kind of turn this over to you. Help us understand, because it sounds like that's maybe, that might be a little misleading into what we're really talking about. So what are we really talking about?

Leor Herzfeld (00:56)
Well, yes, so it's misleading from the perspective of sustainability with regards to the buzzword that it is today, right? So we think about, you know, are we being ecologically responsible and so on and so forth. But in fact, this is sustainability from a more human perspective. So what happens typically when the coach or scrum master leaves the team? Oftentimes things fall apart, right? When that kind of protective presence leaves. the gains that were made tend to erode. Now, why is that the case? Often it's the case because whatever change they've put in place was external. It was a process -oriented change and it's not something that really penetrated into the hearts and minds of the people there.

Brian (01:44)
Yeah. Yeah. I make an argument there as well. Cause I know this is something that, uh, like Lisa Adkins will, will mention is that, you know, if that, if that coach that leaves and there's a vacuum and a hole, and now they're kind of lost, that coach didn't really do a great job because part of our role is to create that capability so that they don't depend on the coach. Right. Um, so yeah.

Leor Herzfeld (02:10)
Yeah, and you know, I'm going to go ahead and take the coaches side here, which is a rare point of view for me. Don't get me wrong. I love coaches and I love agile. But I often think, you know, sometimes coaches might be coming at the situation from, you know, a lack of empathy. You know, they're very process oriented and I've heard many coaches blame the client for, you know, not listening to them where.

Brian (02:16)

Leor Herzfeld (02:36)
you know, as a coach myself, someone who's been a coach for 15 years, I've always felt like it's my responsibility to connect empathically with the person because what are we doing when we're coming in to bring in a massive change? And in essence, Agile is asking people to think backwards, right? It's thinking from the perspective, whether we're talking about, you know, the definition of success is no longer output, it's now outcome. or we're not going to do right to left planning, they're going to say, oh, when's something going to be done? And we're going to say, well, I don't have a baseline for how your teams are performing yet. So let me get back to you in about a month after we'll establish what the team's velocity and throughput is. And that's a terrifying thing for people to hear who are accustomed to doing things a particular way for five, 10, 15 years. So when coaches come in and they're just like, well, here's the process and it must be done this way, why aren't you listening to me? You know, that's where I sometimes take exception with how coaches approach it. I see it as a personal responsibility as a coach to understand the intrinsic motivations of every individual with whom I encounter and really help them get that I understand that you're taking a risk. I understand that you've spent, you've gotten where you are today in terms of your career. You've gotten here by doing these things. And I'm now asking you to throw that out the window and do things differently.

Brian (04:02)
Yeah, it's tough. I mean, the change in itself, anytime we go through change, it's hard and there's resistance to any kind of change that we encounter in our lives. You know, even changes that we would seek out, you know, like getting married or having a kid or anything like that, you know, like it's, we, we, we, uh, we enter into those changes very willingly, but it doesn't mean that every aspect of that change is something that we embrace wholeheartedly, you know, uh, There's adjustment periods and there's just something that you got to get used to when you go through those. And I agree with you. I think the organizations are the same way, the people in those organizations. So I love this approach. I love kind of thinking about it from the human perspective and kind of the impact it makes there. So let's go further into it. So if we're talking about kind of the human aspect of this, help us understand that a little bit more.

Leor Herzfeld (04:56)
Right. So this is something that, you know, that integral agile, this is my company, we've created the integral agile approach. It's intention. So when I say I'm having empathy for coaches here, agile talks about how important the mindset is. And they talk about how important it is to create a healthy agile culture. But if you Google how to create a healthy agile culture or how to cultivate a healthy mindset, there isn't anything that someone can have a look at. and say, oh, I'll just do that then. And the reasons for that are, of course, is it varies place by place. And it's ethereal, right? It's a very difficult thing to codify. We've tried to do that anyway. So the basis of the talk I gave at Agile 2023 was about, if we're talking about sustainable agility, the individuals. So Agile often talks about healthy teams. But I never hear it talking about healthy individuals. And is it possible to have a healthy team if the individuals who make them up are themselves not healthy?

Brian (06:05)
Yeah, that's a very, very good point. And by the way, I got to just stop down here because I got so excited with our topic that I kind of skipped over really giving Leor a proper introduction. I'd said that we cross paths from Agile 2023, but you just reminded me that I didn't really introduce you. Leor is the CEO of a company called Integral Agile. And their philosophy is trying to work to have Agile deliver the results that it promises, which is, again, we were talking a little bit before we started about how that's just not always the case. We see, in fact, it's often not the case. There's a lot of circumstances where organizations are just not getting the promise that they thought they were going to get with Agile. There is a book that is not out yet, but is coming out that Leor is going to have out in a bit called Reimagine. transformation. And so be on the lookout for that. That's going to be a really, really important book, I know. So sustainable from a human perspective, sustainable is the person healthy, is the person working in a way that they can kind of keep that up over a long period of time. There was an interesting thing I came across actually on this that I don't know if you've. encountered this or not, but I know when the whole agile concept of working at a sustainable pace, before that even came up, I think it was from the XP team, when they had originally started to deal with this whole concept of sustainability, their original kind of approach was about, when they started, they actually quoted it as something like, people shouldn't work more than 40 hours a week. And they started from that perspective of we got to limit all this because we're having all these people work nights and weekends. And so let's just say people shouldn't work more than 40 hours a week. But that adjusted over time and it changed it to sustainable because what they realized was, well, for some people, sustainable is less than 40 hours. For other people, it's more than 40 hours. So who are we to say, you know, Hey, this is what sustainable is for you. You've got to find your own sustainable pace.

Leor Herzfeld (08:31)
Yeah, and sustainable pace is a part of it. But you know, if we're talking about so you you, you also may have seen, you know, the Gallup State of Work poll that came out last year. And we've heard about quiet quitting. And, you know, you just have to see now, especially with with Gen Z coming into the marketplace, and, you know, they've got a completely different mindset and they have different expectations at work. They have expectations that are valid. They have expectations around psychological safety, diversity, equity, inclusion. There are things that organizations are struggling to adapt to because there's been this kind of like, you're going to come here and work and you hear people being called resources and that makes us cringe. But there's this old school mindset. And again, I really want to respond to this with empathy and not make like where we are in the world today. This is a slice of human history. And it's very easy to look at, you know, to try and make things wrong, whether it's like there's a mismatch in culture, you know, boomers versus Gen Z versus, you know, millennials, Gen X, whatever. We've got different cultures. We've got different mindsets and we need to figure out a way to come together. So something like... Let's not work 40 hours a week is important, right? But it's not sufficient to say, okay, well, we now have a healthy individual.

Brian (09:55)
Yeah. Yeah, there's a lot more that goes into it, right? There's, I mean, that is part of it, obviously, because you don't want to have burnout and everything else, but I love you bringing up the point about quiet quitting and engagement. You know, there's clearly, you know, lots of organizations deal with this issue of engagement and having a disengaged workforce and trying to have engagement initiatives and raise the level of engagement of employees and all that kind of stuff. So it's clearly a recognized problem. It's clearly something that organizations struggle with and have experimented and tried to find solutions to. So from your perspective, what do you think about that? Why do you feel like organizations are having such a big issue with engagement with their employees?

Leor Herzfeld (10:44)
I think people don't feel valued. They feel like they're fungible parts in the machine. But more so than that, they lack a connection to purpose. So most folks operating in an organization don't know what the organizational purpose is. And if they haven't done their own personal development work, they probably don't know what their own personal purpose is. So they're in there to get a paycheck. And there's this kind of adversarial relationship. I would think most people kind of hate work, right? And again, maybe this is me just being utopic, but I really feel like it doesn't have to be that way, right? And there's this idea of, you know, even in any, something like a retrospective, we don't have time to do the retrospective. So like, you know, oh my God, if we're gonna try to really get down to a human level and try to connect with our people and see what motivates them intrinsically, Like who has time to spend on that? But wow, if you spend the time on that, what do you get? What's your return on investment there? If you can actually help a person connect to what they're passionate about and then how what they're passionate about can contribute to the organizational purpose, which might mean changing their role, right? It's like sticky icky and people don't want to touch it.

Brian (12:08)
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's like, uh, you know, if you were in a professional athlete of some kind and you played whatever game your sport, you know, has, and you just went from game to game to game and never stopped in between to watch the game film or analyze your, your, you know, uh, swing or, you know, right. You got to have that, those moments to stop and be critical, uh, so that you can then say, all right, well, this didn't work as well as we should have, but. Let's try something new. Let's try a different way of approaching.

Leor Herzfeld (12:41)
Right. So this is what we came up with. I've got, you know, I'm curious to hear if anyone has any feedback, but so far these have felt, they've gotten pretty good feedback. So we came up with 14 dimensions of individual health that we feel need to be addressed in one way or another. So I've got safety. I love Daniel Pink. So we've got autonomy, mastery and purpose. Personal growth, right?

Brian (13:08)
Yep, I'm with you.

Leor Herzfeld (13:11)
Person needs to feel like they're learning something or they're gonna get bored. Career growth, if there's no path for them to grow in their career, then they're gonna look for work elsewhere. Diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging, right, very important. Play. Things don't have to be so damn serious all the time. We can have a little bit of fun at work, people. It's not dangerous. You need healthy relationships with your coworkers. Accountability.

Brian (13:31)
Ha ha ha.

Leor Herzfeld (13:41)
Um, and accountability is something that, that is not intrinsic to a lot of people. It's something that often needs to be taught and it's about showing up with integrity. Um, doing what you say you're going to do by when you're saying, by when you say you're going to do it, you know, being your word. And a lot of that comes from, and this is one of the reasons why I love scrum is it creates that accountability to the sprint goal. Hopefully in a way that is, you know, inspirational and not, um, command and control, um, mentoring. People need mentors. Achievement. This is another area where I feel modern Agile for very good reasons is missing something. So we look at performance at the team level. Absolutely makes sense. Let's not look at performance at the individual level. This can create an anti -pattern where we're now saying, well, you're better than you and that's not what this, but there needs to be some kind of an empirical feedback mechanism for an individual. understand how they're improving and that's not something I've seen thus far. Physical health, so there's your 40 hours a week and perhaps some other things and finally mental.

Brian (14:43)
Yeah. Yeah. Those are good. Yeah, I'm just trying to think through. And I don't think I can't, off the top of my head, I can't think of something I would add to that list. That's a really good list.

Leor Herzfeld (15:06)
I'm sure it'll grow. So the talk that I gave only had 12, so we've added two. So I'm sure it'll continue to grow. But like everything else, you know, perfect is the enemy of good. So, you know, what we've created here is, so we've got the list of 14 items, and then we've got this kind of shoe -hawry journey of, you know, are you even on the journey? So there's actually...

Brian (15:11)

Leor Herzfeld (15:31)
tool for this on the Integral Agile website where you could go in and there's four questions for each one and if you answer at the first one, it's something like, let's take autonomy for example, the first one might say, I'm told what to do all the time. And then there's a journey from there. So it's not like you have safety or you don't have safety, you can have a little bit of safety, have a little bit of autonomy. So we created this beginner master, beginner practitioner master journey. And we've tried to set master it, you know, the objective is to get to the practitioner portion of it. We've tried to set master as like a really unattainable thing at work. Just to, you know, and if anyone gets there, it's amazing. But just to indicate that like our objective is to be practicing these things. We want general health, not expertise in every dimension.

Brian (16:11)
Ha ha. So is it kind of a, do you take kind of a survey approach with an organization that you have everyone in the organization kind of rate this and then get an overall score or how do you measure it?

Leor Herzfeld (16:32)
Yeah, yeah, that's a great question. So where I propose this for various different enterprises. You start, so this is applicable anywhere, right? This is applicable to leaders. This is not just applicable to team members. Leaders are feeling all of these things and oftentimes in more dire ways than team members might be. But if we were gonna deploy this across the organization to get a pulse on what's actually happening, we would do this on a team by team basis. So from an individual perspective, the results will be all over the place. Every team's answers are going to have some patterns. that align based on the team's individual culture. Then if we go to the team of teams area, again, so we're gonna see things, a little bit of difference, because different teams, one team might have a stronger scrum master, and therefore their culture is a little, they might feel more psychological safety or more autonomy. So that'll let you know, right? This gives you like a real big indicator of how agile you are, because agile teams will tend to score a little bit higher on some of these. on some of these results. Anything that's happening at the team of teams level that's consistent is telling you that you've got a systemic problem in that team of teams level. And then of course, you raise it from there to the organization or to the enterprise. So the hope is where you see in an organization something lacking, these are not terribly difficult things to remediate and the remediations for them may or may not be agile.

Brian (18:06)
Yeah, yeah, that's a great point. Yeah, I'm just, I'm fascinated by this concept and, and, and I, I like how you broke it down on different levels because you're absolutely right. I'm just sitting here trying to process it through as you're talking through it. And yeah, I can think of scenarios I've been in where we felt like the team has been great or we have a certain level of, like you said, safety or something within a team. But then we feel sort of like the organization is not listening to us or the organization has a different set of values. cultural values than the team does. That is something that I encounter quite a lot in classes too. I hear a lot of people who will say that, that our team is doing all that we can, but we feel like our organization is in a different place culturally and how do we make an impact there? How do we change that? So how would you handle that? What would you say to the teams like that, that feel like we're doing pretty well on our team, but our culture and our organization is just not. kind of in alignment with where we are.

Leor Herzfeld (19:13)
Yeah, so the trick with culture is it's very difficult to see. So this is another tool that we came up with something we call the Integral Cultural Map. So in any organization, in any given area in an organization, there's going to be one of three dominant cultures. There's going to be a risk averse, you know, rules and roles kind of a culture. Right. So that culture is going to be, you know, rife with red tape. making sure that we do things the right way. There's a process for the process for the process. And then the next kind of culture that we see is achievement oriented. This culture is gonna be very exciting. There's gonna be a lot of innovation going on. We're gonna be like results, results, results, bottom line. But the pitfall, so let me go back. Let me make sure that I talk about the healthy and unhealthy versions of these cultures. So the healthy element to the risk averse culture is obviously, you know,

Brian (19:46)

Leor Herzfeld (20:10)
we're gonna be very safe, lowercase s. So you're not gonna get a lot of dings by compliance in an environment like that. However, the rate of progress is probably gonna be pretty slow. And achieving oriented culture, very exciting, lots of great innovation, but the dark side to that might be very individualistic in terms of, you could have political infighting, you could have leaders,

Brian (20:14)

Leor Herzfeld (20:40)
not wanting to relinquish their own little fiefdom if it means, you know, if it's indicated that it makes sense from like some value stream mapping diagram, it makes sense to kind of break things up and create cross -functional teams. They'll say, no, no, no, I want to hold onto my teams. You know, so you'll get that as one of the dark sides of the achievement -oriented culture. And then you get what Agilists love is the people -centric culture. And that culture is going to be very much about ensuring that we have... health and morale. But the pitfall of that culture is it abandons achievement. So, you know, you might have people coming out of a meeting where everyone feels great about the conversation that took place, but nothing was actually accomplished. So there's a fourth level to this. And this is, I'm kind of like talking about something that's inside of integral theory. This is the levels portion of integral theory, if people are familiar. Then there's an integration of all three. And one of the things we try to espouse is, you need control, you need achievement, and you need morale. You have to have all three, but you don't necessarily have to have all three in every area of your enterprise. So if you have an objective that says, I want to make 10 million more dollars, but the culture of the area that is in control of achieving that objective is either we care about our people's morale or we care about making sure that nothing breaks, you're unlikely to meet that objective. So a different tool that we have that reveals these invisible cultural value schemes. And of course, the thing that creates the culture in any area of the enterprise is its immediate leader, which is why you'll see the enterprise itself might have, you know, let's say an achievement oriented culture, but then a particular organization might be very people oriented and another organization might be very, you know, rule, role, risk averse.

Brian (22:36)
Yeah. That's fascinating. Yeah, I mean, I see exactly what you mean. And I see how those things kind of interact with each other. So tell us a little bit about, because I know you have this book that's going to be coming out. And you described it really before we got on about how it's sort of your theory there at Integral Agile. So re -imagine transformation. What are you trying to capture? with this forthcoming book.

Leor Herzfeld (23:09)
So it's really taking this thing that we've worked on for the last five years, this integral Agile approach, and breaking it down into a series of tools that people can use. Again, Agile's been very good to me, and I like it very much. I think that it's a little bit sick right now. We've seen there's been like Capital One just declared, hey, we're good, let's get rid of our coaches and scrum masters. And... I, the shine is definitely, I don't want to go so far as to say it's become a dirty word because it hasn't, um, and the industry is still growing, but the, the luster has gone off it. And that's because it's failing to the deliver the results it promises. So after people have been through a transformation two, three, four times, I've dealt with this myself, right? I'm, I'm coming to a team and they've had, you know, three coaches before and they're like, well, it hasn't worked before. Why is it going to work with you? Um, and it's almost like, I used to joke, you know, it's like, um, bad, you know, significant other syndrome. Like the person, like you're dating someone and their last three significant others, you know, treated them like garbage and they're like, they've got that trauma built up. Um, so we're just trying to help everybody with this book. The reasons why agile fails when it fails is because it's only addressing half the problem. It's addressing what you can see. Um, so what we wanted to add into it is how do we take the elements that we can't see and how do we add them back in? not from a, this is an important thing, let's do this perspective, but literally in every single element of everything you do, how do you add it in if you're giving a one -to -one? How do you add it in during sprint planning or during backlog refinement? When you're thinking about OKRs, how can we think about it from these internal and external perspectives? And the thing that we've been challenged by, that we feel pretty good about now, but it took us a really long time to get here, is how can we describe these internal processes that quite frankly many business people have no appetite for whatsoever. How can we put it in a way where they will want to give it the attention it deserves? Because if it's not given the attention it deserves, these invisible blocks, whether they're cultural elements or values mismatches or, you know. people just hate their job, right? People are not aligned with purpose. How can we do this in a way that's visible, that's simple, and that people will actually want to buy? So that's the objective of...

Brian (25:47)
I think that's an awesome take because I know one of the things that we try to do in our classes and one of the things I hear from people who come through classes a lot is just, you know, there's a lot of discussion in sort of a lofty, high ideals, wouldn't this be great if things worked in this way? But, you know, a lot of times people don't really understand, all right, well, that's the way it should be in totality. But here's what I'm dealing with on a day -to -day basis. I've got OKRs. I've got all the stuff that I've got to do. How does that change what I do on a day -to -day basis? So I think that's really wonderful. I think that's a really needed aspect of that is, you know, kind of in the practicality, how does this play out on, you know, just what we typically do on a regular basis as a business.

Leor Herzfeld (26:38)
Yeah. I mean, if it's not practical, who cares? You know, I'm a giant nerd. I love getting into theorizing and thinking about all of these things at the end of all of that conversation. If I can't say, try this, here's the way to try it. If I can't explain a concept to you in 15 minutes in a way that you can use it, I failed.

Brian (26:41)
Right. Yeah. Yeah, I'm right there with you. Well, this is fascinating stuff. And we're going to put a lot of links in our show notes for this episode so that you can get in touch with Leor if you want to find out some more about this or maybe find out about the book that's coming out. Maybe get on a list to be able to buy that once it's available. Also, so you can get in touch with this company at Integral Agile. But this is fascinating stuff. I really appreciate Leor, you taking the time to come on and help us understand this a little bit.

Leor Herzfeld (27:36)
Yeah, I appreciate the opportunity to speak with you. And I'll also note that on our site, the majority of these elements are just right there. So a lot of the stuff, the models, the diagrams, how you can actually do these things, we wanted to give that away. So we're just looking to, in a general sense, well, now we're looking to bring Agile back from the brink. I mean, I hope it's not the brink, but we want this to work. And the reason why my company exists,

Brian (28:00)
Ha ha. Leor Herzfeld (28:06) is we want to make people's lives better. Our objective is to make people's lives better at work. The first time I ever worked with a Scrum team, the difference in the way they showed up at work, the way they spoke to each other, it was night and day. They're laughing, they're happy. And I think about it, a colleague of mine once said, I'm tired of doing this agile thing. I don't need to help whatever bank make an extra $5 million. And I'm like, dude, that's not what we're doing. I mean, sure, it's a knock -on effect of what we're doing, but every life that we touch where that person feels lighter, feels more able to express themselves, we spend the majority of our times at work. And if that time is misery, then you go home drained, dejected, and you bring that energy with you to your friends, to your family, to your children. If that time is something that, you know, okay, joyful, could be, I like to think so, but even just not painful, it has an effect. So that's what inspires me and that's why we're here.

Brian (29:15)
That's awesome. I'm right there with you. Completely agree. It is important. It is important how you show up and what you do at work. It's kind of one of the things I say to people sometimes is both things can be true at the same time. It's fine. Yes, we do help from a business perspective. We're helping people be more efficient with their business and get more from less. And... really achieve higher levels of success. But at the same time, we're also helping people to have more fun at work and to enjoy their time at work, not be miserable with their time at work.

Leor Herzfeld (29:54)
Yeah. Yeah. And that's, I mean, I, you know, that's a good point you're bringing up. I know we're just about out of time, but I, you know, I don't want the message to get lost that this is like some touchy feely kind of a thing. Um, this is the way, if you want that 300 % boost in throughput, you need this to get there. You're not going to do it by throwing new process at the situation.

Brian (30:17)
And I'm geeky enough to just have to repeat that phrase again. This is the way. All right. Well, thanks again, Leor. I appreciate you coming on. And we'll make sure people can get in touch with you.

Leor Herzfeld (30:22)
I love it. Awesome, thank you, Brian.