Agile Mentors Podcast from Mountain Goat Software

What can Agile leaders learn from the Marines? In this episode, Tanner Wortham joins Brian to share how principles of military leadership—like building authority into the trenches, experimenting under pressure, and prioritizing shared mission over ego—map surprisingly well to modern Agile teams.

Overview

In this conversation, Brian sits down with Marine Corps veteran and Execution Architect Tanner Wortham to explore the parallels between leading Marines and leading Agile teams. Drawing from both military and coaching experience, Tanner unpacks how the Corps’ “rule of three,” mission-first mentality, and obsession with experimentation mirror the best of Agile thinking.

They discuss how effective leadership empowers decision-making at the edges, why conflict shouldn't be avoided but navigated with curiosity, and how facing toward hard problems—rather than away from them—builds high-performing, resilient teams. Whether you're coaching a Scrum team or leading large-scale transformations, Tanner’s insights offer a fresh lens on what it really means to lead with agility.

References and resources mentioned in the show:

Tanner Wortham
What the Corps Calls Leading Marines Others Call Agility
#113: Influence Without Authority with Christopher DiBella
#135: Leading Without Authority with Pete Behrens
#132: Can Nice Guys Finish First? with Scott Dunn
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This episode’s presenters are:

Brian Milner is a Certified Scrum Trainer®, Certified Scrum Professional®, Certified ScrumMaster®, and Certified Scrum Product Owner®, and host of the Agile Mentors Podcast training at Mountain Goat Software. He's passionate about making a difference in people's day-to-day work, influenced by his own experience of transitioning to Scrum and seeing improvements in work/life balance, honesty, respect, and the quality of work.

Tanner Wortham is a former Marine turned leadership coach who helps teams and execs cut through the noise, lead with clarity, and actually get things done. With experience at LinkedIn, Salesforce, and beyond, he brings a no-fluff, human-first approach to growth, agility, and real leadership.

Auto-generated Transcript:

Brian Milner (00:00)
Welcome in Agile Mentors. We're back for another episode of the Agile Mentors podcast. I'm here as always, Brian Milner, but today I have a very special guest with us. I have Mr. Tanner Wertham with us. Tanner, welcome in.

Tanner Wortham (00:12)
Thank you, Brian, thank you.

Brian Milner (00:14)
Tanner, for those of you who haven't crossed paths with him or aren't familiar with his work, Tanner likes to use this job title Execution Architect, which I think is an awesome job title. That's a great way to look at things. Tanner spoke at Agile 2025 this year, something kind of around his experiences with being in the Marines. So he spent a decade in the Marines and he has his own consulting company now.

that you can find at worth.am, which is kind of his last name. And we'll put links to that in the show notes as well. But we wanted to have Amman to kind of talk about some of that stuff that came from his talk and hear a little bit about, when we think about the Marines, you think about them, I mean, of all the branches of service in the US, the Marines seem like the most buttoned up, like the most hardcore.

right, of that group. first of all, I don't want to go further without saying, first of all, Tanner, thank you for your service. I want to make sure I say that. help us with this. I know your talk is kind of about how what Marines call leading Marines you call, the rest of world calls Agile. These things seem like they might be a little bit of a mismatch. So how is leading Marines like Agile?

Tanner Wortham (01:11)
Thank you, guys.

You know, I mean, so the Marine Corps, very hierarchical organization, very tall, you have the chain of command. But when, you know, when push comes to shove or like Mike Tyson had said, everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face. The Marine Corps realizes this. And when we get punched in the face, we're ready for what happens next. So typically the idea is, is you got to make sure that the authority is where the information is, which is in the trenches. So while there is the hierarchy, you also have to train leaders all the way from the bottom.

So it's this really weird contradiction of skills. I gave you a really simple example. One of the last people I spoke to before I left the Marine Corps was General Mattis. He was our old secretary of defense for a while too. At the time he was my commanding general in Quantico. And he was one of those people that would just come up to you and grab you by the shoulder and ask how you're doing. And I remember when I was just getting a bite to eat with some other Marines and he sat down with us.

And it was the most candid conversation I had ever had with anyone in his position. And one of his rules was, is a meeting does not end until someone asks me a tough question. And I mean, to me, that's very much the embodiment of Agile, where let's mix it up, let's have lots of opinions, but at the end of this, let's make sure we have a decision and try something so we don't talk about it.

Brian Milner (02:37)
Ha ha ha.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's a great story. I love that story. And, you know, one of the things I think, one of the things I hear quite often in classes, even when I, when I teach people is, is kind of, you know, there's a lot of people who do business with the government and with branches of the military even. And, you know, they're, they're as agile as their kind of responses is, boy, is it even possible? I don't really even know how to do this thing.

in, as you said, such a buttoned up organization that's so top down driven with such a hierarchical kind of structure to it. So I'm sure there's pressure there. I'm sure there's kind of friction between that and some of the things we talk about in Agile. How do you overcome that?

Tanner Wortham (03:33)
that's tough. Well, he's funny too, because I mean, I remember when I took my CSM many years ago, I was like sharing stories of my time in the Marine Corps and the comparison between the two. like, so you just do stuff that makes sense. ⁓ And I mean, that's kind of what Agile is, just do what makes sense. And the friction, at least in the Marine Corps, I never really, I never really sensed that friction. I say that now, there were certainly some people who

Brian Milner (03:33)
Hahaha.

Yeah.

Tanner Wortham (03:59)
they would hide behind the rank and you do what I say because I'm in charge. But I feel like a lot of my career I was very fortunate to not work with many of those, but they also made some great examples for the ones that did appear. I'm trying to think of a good example. Here's one that I'll often share. There's this idea of the rule of three. You ever heard of this before from the Marine Corps?

Brian Milner (04:20)
Go ahead and describe it for us.

Tanner Wortham (04:21) I've only heard it written about once. I've shared this analogy a few times in the past, but I've only heard it written down once in an article that in the Marine Corps, they're built off this rule of three, that you have a fire team leader and then the fire team are three fire team members. And in a squad are three fire teams and a squad leader. And in each platoon are three squads and a platoon leader. In each company, three platoons and a company commander. I think you see where I'm going with this.

It's recursively built up this rule of three, which feels very tall, but then it funnels everything back down in a way of, all right, so I am a platoon leader. I don't have to think about the 30 submarines under my charge. I just have to think about what squad one, squad two and squad three are doing, which should keep me out of micromanaging and going directly to my Marines and telling them what to do, but also gives me this really nice construct where I can mentor the people at this level and pass along information at that.

Brian Milner (04:47)
Yeah.

Tanner Wortham (05:16)
So the simplicity of it is just brilliant in this rule of three, to have information find its way up through the hierarchy, but also have the authority find its way back down from above. And the way that's usually actualized is through this thing called a five paragraph order. I won't go into all of it, but there's one bit that I think is really important, is that you have all of these orders that are very quickly drawn and they're given out. And if I'm a platoon leader,

I give my five paragraph order to my three squad leaders who give it to their three fire teams. But what's useful is rather than giving them like stretch goals, you say with your three units, one of them is labeled as the primary effort. And then the other two are labeled as supporting efforts. And what that is is a prioritization mechanism where I'm telling my people that three things are important to me, but if push comes to shove, don't let that primary effort fall over. Abandon your own mission, second and third squads, if you must.

but make sure first squad succeeds. Which is also another contradiction of how do you get Marines with huge egos to put them aside, not complete their own mission, and instead prop up what someone else's mission is.

Brian Milner (06:23)
Yeah. Yeah, that's a good question. Because I know I've been on teams with people that have big egos also. And there's developers out there that are rock stars and know it. yeah, tell us a little about that.

Tanner Wortham (06:42)
Yeah, you know what's funny? I'm also a pilot in my spare time and communication is something that's really interesting because when you're flying planes, only one person can talk either the pilot or the controller, but not both at the same time. And many times you've got many pilots with the controller on the same frequency and the simplicity of it I think is really important. But I think my point with the communication and flying is the same thing with the Marine Corps, that when lives are on the line, you tend to take things a lot more simply.

you tend to do things that work rather than very convoluted complex things that might not work. And I know with like some teams I've worked with over the years that you would say, let's use a physical board. And this is, I remember when I was working at LinkedIn, I remember a team that I pitched that to and they're like, why would we do that? That's so simple. We got Jira, we'll just use Jira. And I'm like, well, maybe we do this. I think the thing is, is that very intelligent people can convince themselves of.

very complex ideas because they fall in love with the complexity rather than the simplicity of something basic. But I think anything that is complex is just simplicity, were folded into simplicity until you find something complex. A good example is emergence from biology, a colony of ants. An ant by itself, not particularly smart, but an ant colony, you get them together and they're self-organizing and have...

these very basic means of communication that are very sophisticated.

Brian Milner (08:08)
Yeah, these are all great. love how they're, I mean, I'm seeing a lot of great leadership kind of ideas coming from what you're saying here. And I'm, I want to kind of tie in a little bit more to more agile principles and things. So I want to go back a little bit to your rule of three and kind of help us make that connection. How has that reflected or how has that been kind of paralleled in what you've experienced and learned?

working with agile teams.

Tanner Wortham (08:36)
You know what? I've always said I would love to see an organization built similar to something the rule of three and I've not yet seen it happen. ⁓ One of my biggest lessons away from that has to do with the primary versus supporting effort. That there's all this research around like stretch goals being really useful. And I think that research is correct. I think where the real problem is, is that there's a lot fewer higher performing teams out there than we would like to believe.

Brian Milner (08:42)
Hahaha.

Yeah, yeah.

Tanner Wortham (09:01)
So when I'm thinking of the rule of three, I'm thinking of that primary versus supporting effort that you can say one thing is important, most important and have three things there. And you don't have to worry about stretch goals. You don't have to worry about people being ambitious or working long hours. So I think one of the things that I'd offer up is the idea of how can we, when we're at work, limit our priorities to three? How can we socialize that in a way that it's shared with others?

And when the fourth thing comes around as it inevitably will, and the fifth and the sixth, how do you have a conversation to figure out which one of your three needs to be subbed out? Or perhaps that the three that you have need to be reinforced as the right things to work on. We work on so many things at once. And I remind people all the time that progress is not defined by the amount of things you start. It's defined by the amount of things you finish.

Brian Milner (09:54)
Yeah. Yeah, that's awesome. You mentioned something there that kind of triggered a thought in me because you talked about high performing teams a little bit. And I know from just the outside looking in, the Marines have a lot of high performing teams and you must have really learned a lot about high performing teams. What makes a high performing team work and kind of what the secret ingredients are for it. what

did you kind of take away from the Marines as far as getting a group of people together to work together in a way that's very valuable and effective?

Tanner Wortham (10:26)
We are very honest with each other in the Marine Corps, which definitely helps. We're very eager to give feedback. And it's feedback that sometimes bruises, but is always useful. There was one of the points I was trying to make during Agile 2025 when I was telling some of my stories was this, I used to say reward failure.

Brian Milner (10:29)
Mm.

Tanner Wortham (10:48)
And then people would always push back on the idea. And I think rightfully so. It's like, no, no, no, don't reward failure. You're not supposed to celebrate it. And they're right, but I could never find the language. And then it was Culture Code by Daniel Coyle, I think it was, where he talked about this idea of facing towards the problem, like a police officer running towards the scene of a crime rather than away. And it's facing towards the problem that was built into the DNA of the Marine Corps to be able to do these

fantastic things and to build these high performing teams because we were willing to look at what needed to be looked at, talk about what needed to be talked about, and didn't just focus on the simple theatrical things, but actually focused on things of substance. And I'll give you how the Marine Corps used to do this. And it's really fantastic. One of the ways. You ever watch Wipeout back in the day? ⁓ Okay, you're smiling because it's...

Brian Milner (11:35)
Yeah, yeah.

Tanner Wortham (11:39)
All of us should be ashamed that we laughed at watching these people just like jump on these red balls and then flip three times in the air and then land into the water. And the whole point of Wipeout wasn't so that people would navigate these courses successfully. It was so that people, we could enjoy the show as people were tumbling in the air. The Marine Corps has a similar kind of thing, except they call it the Leadership Reaction Course, the LRC. You would have these obstacle courses that you inevitably were gonna fail on.

And your evaluators weren't watching you to see if you were successful. They were watching to see how you behaved when you failed. And then they would debrief with you on the other side and they would share what they saw and you would talk about what you learned from it. And they often did it when you were tired and hungry so that emotions were just below the surface. It was very evil. But you learned a lot about facing towards the problem. And one of the most important life lessons I think I could ever give anyone is very simple and this.

intentionally try hard things. And not like stretch goals hard. That's a different kind of hard. I mean, like I said, I fly planes, but I'm also afraid of heights. I learned to scuba dive. I'm not the best swimmer and I'm not that comfortable in water. I speak at conferences or I'm speaking now. Speaking is not my jam. This is exhausting. I'm going to sleep great tonight. But that's what I mean about facing towards the problem because the idea is, that you can either...

Try hard things on your own terms when the risk is low, or you can try hard things on someone else's terms when the risk is high, but you do not get out of this life without having to try hard things. So I'd much rather do it on my own.

Brian Milner (13:13)
That's a great point. love that. Yeah, I completely agree. And there's no way to stretch your boundaries. some of those things I know in my life, maybe you've experienced the same thing, but there have been some of those edges that I've kind of bumped up against and thought, I'm not really comfortable doing this. But then I did it. And it's sort of like, wow, I guess I'm pretty good at that. I didn't know I was going to be good at that. I didn't know it was going to be as easy as it was.

Tanner Wortham (13:30)
Mm-hmm.

Brian Milner (13:38)
Once I got past the fear of doing it and tried it, it was like, wow, this is actually pretty easy. I'm pretty comfortable doing this. So you never find those unless you try a series of those things. But I'm kind of curious. That kind of sparks to my mind a little bit of some of the other things that you had in there about experimentation.

And just kind of this mindset of experimentation. Cause I agree with you. think that's kind of a very foundational thing as far as being agile, but help us. mean, that doesn't feel like such a military kind of thing to try things and to experiment. And it feels like, no, everything's decided and we do this and then that and this. tell me how you learned about experimentation and the experimentation mindset.

Tanner Wortham (14:22)
⁓

I want to disagree with you so much right now. I mean, I feel like it's very much baked into the DNA of the military because every bit of combat, there's a great deal of uncertainty. And uncertainty is mostly mitigated through experimentation. And the last thing you want is to throw everyone at the problem and then you end up with zero people left to fight. I'll give you something I ran into a while ago in the Marine Corps and then I'll tie it.

Brian Milner (14:26)
You

Yeah.

Tanner Wortham (14:46)
to some of my own philosophies in the agile space around experimentation. There was a Marine commanding officer, I ran into his work on LinkedIn, and he had created this thing called sprint chess. And it was like regular chess, the pieces moved the same way, you had a board, you had two people playing, except rather than moving the pieces one turn at a time, the two Marines playing had to run down to a set of cones and then run back, and then they can move a piece.

which means if you run faster than the other person, you get to move more often. But if you run faster than the other person, you might wear yourself out and make terrible moves. And what the Marine was trying to teach was this notion of thinking and fighting drills. But he didn't have a lot of material or a whole bunch of people or a whole big elaborate set to do. So he instead say, what do I have? It's from liberating structures. I think it's the five, 15 % solution.

that liberating structure. It's kind of like that. What can I do with what I have right now? And what that commanding officer did was just get a chessboard, create the rules that I just described. And then it's the most, I have an animation of some Marines watching a chess game. I've never seen them interested in chess in my life. It's the most fascinating thing to me. But that was his way of experimenting. And I think that's how teams should be viewing it too. That many times they look at...

what needs to change and it's similar to someone looking at their diet plan and saying I need to lose 20 pounds and they think about it and they look at all the diets they could potentially do but losing 10 pounds is more about the salad you have on a Tuesday than all the research you spend trying to find the perfect diet plan and it's those habits a lot of the stuff from James Clear from Atomic Habits comes to mind and one of the things I like to do with teams is to just create like litmus tests

of experiments of saying, all right, it's something that can start almost immediately. It's something that we know what it looks like when we're not doing so we can hold each other accountable. It has a finish line because I found the most persuasive way to get someone, a skeptic bought into trying something different is to tell them that it'll end. And at the end, they can say, I told you so, or they could say at the end, I've learned something and maybe this isn't so bad.

Brian Milner (16:54)
Hahaha.

Tanner Wortham (17:00)
So creating these litmus tests alongside your team, co-creating them together, is a great way to create a set of almost ground rules for the retro to say, hey, we don't leave the room until we find something to change, and it's got to meet these tests. And if we can do that in 15 minutes, team, that means our retro is over in 15 minutes. And who doesn't like a short meeting? And I think that's a great way to experiment. The hard part about experimentation, though, is it feels so small that it's easy to miss.

Brian Milner (17:20)
You

Tanner Wortham (17:30)
all the gains that is coming from all those small things. And I mean, in that way, you just got to learn to celebrate the small wins and you need to have a way to really reflect to appreciate how far you've come in a great amount.

Brian Milner (17:42). Yeah, those are great points. I completely agree. It's funny that once you make the connection, I can see it. I can definitely see how it is. There's a lot of experimentation baked into it. But it's so funny perspectives from being in one place versus the other. I want to ask you about something else then, because getting back to our idea of working with teams, one of the things that's

kind of happens when you get these strong personalities together, like you have in the military or like you would have on just a group of developers, is they're gonna rub each other the wrong way every now and then. I would imagine in the military that might happen more frequently because you're living in close quarters, you're not just, you can't go home, right? You can't go home at the end of the day and say, forget that person. So what did you learn about dealing with those kind of personality conflicts and

know, navigating through conflict on teams to make them, to keep them more effective.

Tanner Wortham (18:34)
Yeah, yeah, I mean, in the Marine Corps, the toughest bit wasn't like telling your Marines what to do or listening to what your higher ups had to say. It was navigating your peers, which was a strong group of people with strong personalities who have different agendas than you. And that was always tough. That was the hardest part. That's where I started to learn how to be persuasive. And I mean, typically when it came to conflict, there was a...

There was a comedian I saw a long time ago, he was talking about marriage. He said, you can be right or you can be happy. Choose wisely. And I always think about that when it goes, like, if I want to have a tough conversation because someone's rubbing me the wrong way, I'm thinking to myself, do I want to have this conversation because I want to be right? And if I do, I'm not yet ready to have the conversation. And typically when it came to navigating conflict, whether it was in the Marine Corps or the civilian sector, well, first off, most people are terrible at

but they're only terrible at it because we tend to avoid things that are hard like that. But it's like building a muscle, the more you do it, the better it gets. But certainly it's very awkward and uncomfortable the first few times you do it. But I think what matters is when you go into those conversations, you're not going in to be right, you're going in to understand another person's perspective. And I think the easiest way to do that is through a lens of a bias towards innocence, that you go in and this person didn't rub me the wrong way because that's what they intended to do.

So let me get curious as to why we're not getting along right now. And you just listening to them and asking questions, inevitably they want to then listen to you. But the only way you can get someone to listen to you is the first listen to them. So take that step to listen, to ask questions. And I have learned something. I gonna post this on LinkedIn today and I ran out of time, but I've learned that you can either be curious or you can be judgmental.

but you cannot be both at the same time. So when you find that you're being judgmental, see if you can switch it to the other side. And when you're navigating conflict and you're in those conversations, make sure that you have a stance of curiosity and not one of judgment. Even if you think you're not being judgy or if you think you can hide it, you can't. People can sense it. They're much smarter than we think they are.

Brian Milner (20:43)
Yeah, that's the kind of Ted Lasso call back there via kind of pop culture Walt Whitman, be curious, not judgmental. I've always loved that quote and actually kind of found out that it's, over the years that it's not really Walt Whitman, that that was actually.

Tanner Wortham (20:59)
Yeah, it's funny.

I've never heard that before. I've actually never seen Ted Lasso either, and everybody keeps telling me to go check it out.

Brian Milner (21:05)
Yeah, no, you'd love it. I love that show. Yeah, I'm kind of curious. mean, as you kind of connected these two worlds together, you know, is there anything that surprised you about the connection that you didn't think would be there? Or is there something that generally surprises others when you tell them that there's a connection between these two worlds that they wouldn't anticipate?

Tanner Wortham (21:29)
Most people go into it with the notion that it's a very structured world. And in a lot of ways it is, but only it's a very, only from an outsider point of view, when you're in, I mean, it's funny, cause you're talking at the start about Marine Corps, it's like the best and look how awesome, man, when you're inside it, you're like, this, this is messed up. Look at this dysfunction. What is going on with some of these people? So when you're on the inside of it, you have such a high standard that it's, it's different and you see things differently.

Brian Milner (21:34)
Yeah.

Tanner Wortham (21:57)
I will tell you that my biggest surprise when I became a civilian was this idea that in the Marine Corps, you're promoted based on how well you are at sharing knowledge and sharing what you know. In the civilian sector, it feels like often the opposite is incentivized, this victim empire building, or like you take your knowledge and you hoard it, and that's how you have job security. Even to this day, after what, almost 20 years of being out in the Marine Corps, I still struggle with this.

that why not teach people what you know so that you can get promoted to the next thing so that they can take your role. And it goes back to something else I say often. We should be needed or we should be wanted, not needed. And we humans, I think we crave being needed, but I think that's an impulse we have to be aware of and to adjust. Because I mean, like with the team, I remember a team I was a Scrum Master for, and I remember I was at a standup.

Brian Milner (22:38)
Yeah.

Tanner Wortham (22:52)
And I kept interjecting. And then finally, one of the team members goes, no, no, Tanner, we got this. And I'm like, my God, I am so proud of you right now. Thank you for calling me out on that. I was trying to control this conversation and you reminded me that you had it. And I think that's very true that we should be operating from a space of being wanted rather than needed. And I think all of us in the agile space, agile coaches, Scromasters, product owners, doesn't matter what your role is.

Brian Milner (23:00)
You

Tanner Wortham (23:19)
All of us are leaders and the most important responsibility of all leaders is to build a resilient team or organization.

Brian Milner (23:26)
Yeah. Yeah. No, this is great stuff. I agree. It's kind of the, the thing we talk about here on the show is, is the kind of the motto for our podcast is this, simple little phrase mentor and be mentored. And the, the, I tell people, you know, I have definitely learned over my time here on this, this spinning globe, that, that that's the secret to.

Tanner Wortham (23:39)
Yes.

Brian Milner (23:51)
kind of really accelerating my career and learning and growth is that it's, I learn as much from mentoring someone else as I do from being mentored by someone higher. We all want the person who's more experienced than us to share their knowledge with us, but we have this kind of resistance to doing the same thing to someone else. And I'm here to tell you, I've learned as much going the other way from mentoring others.

Tanner Wortham (24:16)
And isn't it great? Isn't it awesome? I'll tell you, you remind me of something. So my five-year-old, we were in the car. It was me, my wife and our five-year-old. We were driving somewhere. And I was telling, I was like cringing with my wife because I had made a silly mistake at work. I had done something that just shouldn't have happened. And I'm telling my wife about it and my little girl's in the back seat. And she says at one point, daddy, it's okay to make mistakes. That's how we learn. And I'm like, who taught you that? And she goes, you did.

So it's funny that there is a lesson from every single human, young or old, experienced or not, to include a five-year-old daughter in a car seat in my backseat.

Brian Milner (24:51)
Yeah, I mean, it's almost like an episode of Bluey right there that you just kind of left off the screen. That's awesome. Well, this has been great. I really appreciate you taking the time to come on because I feel like I've learned a lot because I don't have a military service background at all, but I highly respect those that do. And it just seems like there's a lot of depth there.

Tanner Wortham (24:56)
Yeah.

Brian Milner (25:18)
maybe that from the outside looking in, we don't always understand a little bit about kind of how things work. But these are humans that are just trying to find the best way to get along. And these principles are the best way to do something outside of the military. They naturally be the best way to do stuff in the military as well, if they're the best way of doing things.

Tanner Wortham (25:36)
Yeah. Yeah. And for those who might be interested, an earlier version of this talk, what the Corps calls leading Marines, others call agility, is recorded and it's published on my blog if you want to hear the details. I will tell you the three principles that I talked through in that talk. May I share that? ⁓ Build authority on demand into the hierarchy. We talked about another one already, facing towards the problem. And we also talked about the third, experiment obsessive.

Brian Milner (25:52)
Yeah, please go for it.

Tanner Wortham (26:03)
And in it, I share some stories both as a coach and as a Marine.

Brian Milner (26:07)
That's awesome, I'm gonna be looking it up and listening to it. So Tanner, thanks for coming on, I really appreciate your time and thank you again for your service.

Tanner Wortham (26:14)
Thank you so much, Brian. I appreciate it.